posted 02-15-2004 09:27 AM         

Jack-
Check your computer for a virus! I'll bet you got one and I bet it is from the Netherlands! George sent me a Trojan when he was on my case a few months ago.

Ted

posted 02-17-2004 08:05 AM            

I am contemplating a response for George but don't know if I want to open that can of worms. I thought I would be deluged with e-mails, since he posted my address but haven't had any yet. Hope it stays that way.

Jack

posted 02-18-2004 08:52 AM            

I just read the postings attacking Jack on Anti-P.com. Wow! They even posted a link to his picture on Polygraph Place, as if that somehow provides validity to their assertions. Of course, it does to the mindless minions who follow his site postings, as when he posted a link to the FBI Poly Div.

I believe the problem is, that no matter what we (collectively) say or do in a hit or miss fashion, George and "the kids" will find a way to rationalize around it with sexy inuendo and half-truths and continue their attacks as status quo.

George, et al, have built their case on no-one accepting Richardson's challenge. Of course, no matter if an an examiner did accept, we all know, they will find a way out, for example, well, this one examiner discovered countermeasure usage, but was unable to tell us exactly which one was used, therefore, he is just guessing, or only one chance at detecting countermeasure does not prove all examiners, or even trained examiners can do so, with any reliability, etc. For this reason, attacking George individually or directly on his assertions will not work.

What the answer is, I do not know. I do know that I catch people using countermeasure almost daily and I never see them posting their failure rates on the web. I know I never see anyone address the wild assumptions being made of high false positive rates or the "need" for examinees to protect themselves, assertions of examiners "lying" to examinees, the weaknes of the meta-analysis report of the NAS, etc.
I also know that I (and other examiners) sometimes feel frustrated that no-one is "taking George out"...

Could some organization or even an academic coordinate an effort, by many, to attack this ruse of George's? People (meaning the public) are generally stupid and will believe whatever they read on the I-net without consideration of the source. Say something often enough and loud enough, in an intelligent manner and people will ultimately believe it. I believe George has said things often enough and loud enough, that many now listen and do nothing but cause themself harm. I mean common, I had a professional police "fraternal" organization referring IAU examinees on their open site to visit George's site before coming in to see me.
Talk about a CM bonanza...I could almost predict which CM they would use based on their seniority and age.

I pose this open question to all. What is it we CAN DO to combat George? His very presence has convinced many unsuspecting people the polygraph doesn't work, that they need to "protect themselves" and employ CM's, causing many honest people to have problems during examinations?

I am a practitioner, not an academic, but I know there are a lot of smarter people out there who read this and other sites, who could lead this type of effort.

Or would it even be worth it?

Any thoughts?

Jim

posted 02-18-2004 11:18 AM         

Good post. I had earlier suggested that the APA might want to "take the challenge" to silence the naysayers once and for all, but there was little interest at the time.

Jack,

If you'd like to post the reply you are thinking of sending to George, you could post it here first for comment.

------------------
It's a thankless job, but somebody's gotta do it.

posted 02-18-2004 01:43 PM            

The problem with their challenge is that it is a no win situation. We say he used counter measures he says he didn't, or vice versa.

Here's my idea. How about a challenge of our own, clock and all. We set up a simple scenario and challenge George and Drew to participate. One would committ a mock crime the other would not. They each bring a certified cashiers check for $50,000 payable to the APA or the AAPP. Upon completion of the exams if they "beat" the examiner they can tear up the check, if not it gets cashed and deposited. Lets see how good they are when they have something to lose.

Jack

posted 02-18-2004 04:49 PM            

First, a challenge to your mock crime, BUT, before we accept that, challenge George and the boys must prove the success and reliability of his methodology as stated in TLBTLD, by the average reader/examinee of his site (not PhD R and/or cronies opinion based on "psuedo" reasearch) and furthermore, prove their claim that rates of false positives in the field are as high as they state. (worded more intelligently, of course)

Now we need someone with academic qualifications to jump in here and volunteer to initiate it. A challenge coming from a group of field examiners would not be considered much of a threat to their credibility.

Then, we get all that read this site to saturate George's site with curious questions (anonymously), inquiring why they don't seem up to the challenge EVERY TIME "our" academic shoots down their espousal of BS. Then we "tick, tick, tick," him to death.

OK, on ideas, that's a start.

Anyone else have input?

Jim

posted 02-19-2004 10:06 AM         

These clowns spend day and night practicing these techniques while using actual instrumentation.

Now the reality check. How many of the anti-polygraph "hose heads" have the time to develop proficency at these techniques? How many of them have access to a working instrument?? How many of them have any polygraph training? See the big picture???.

I say leave George, Dr. Drew and the "Countermeasure Clock" alone. They are the best thing that ever happened to our profession.

The people who try to use these techniques usually run to Anti-polygraph.org when they learn they will be asked to take a polygraph exam. They don't have the time, training, or the tools to get any good and it. Then they come into our offices and crash and burn trying to pucker, squeeze and who knows what else! They go home with a swollen tounge, a sore butt and no job!

The only consolation they get from George VS. Doug Williams, is that it did not cost them $29.95 to get caught.

George and Dr. Drew are doing nothing more than leading rats to the river and I say let em' run!

posted 02-19-2004 11:35 AM            

I am conflicted, though.

I agree that George and the boys are good for "guilty" business. Many of my routine tests are actually fun to give, knowing the examinee will likely try to beat me. I further know the guilty will fail regardless and leave my office with hurting body parts and bloody toes. And, the naysayers will always have a drum to beat and a w(h)ine to produce.

It is the innocent, curious examinee who believes all the crap he puts out on the web site that concerns me. George has made a life telling examinees everything that happens during the testing process. This is simply reiforcement to the dubious doubters when they come in for the test. He tells them his garbage, they come in for the test, we tell and do with them everything George has already told them with his own personal slant, then we try to explain that George has lied or slanted his information, when we just gave George credibility by our own actions.

I'm as frustrated as the next examiner and would love to see George go away, but that is unlikely to occur. Besides, I kinda like the right to free speech.

The question is, how do we, as a profession get through to the truthful examinee, before they take an exam? We need positive press of some form, beyond putting "how it works" (yawn) stuff on the web. But how, is the question.

For your consideration,

Jim

posted 02-24-2004 10:45 PM            

Today I recieved 2 Trojan viruses. I suspect them from being sent by Anti-polygraph members. If you get an email from either of the following sources do not open it.

Ken@polygraphatlanta.com

Polygraph@axciton.com

These are bogus email addresses, which made me believe they came from Axciton and Ken Blackstone.

posted 02-26-2004 11:26 AM         

Now he has posted DoDPI's entire 23 page manual for examiners on Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Testing (LEPET). The bottom of each page has also been hand numbered which leads me to beleive George's copy is a copy that was used in some type of legal/civil court case.

If you did not attend DoDPI training you may find it worth a look.

Ted

posted 02-27-2004 07:38 AM            

Isn't this a great job? I really appreciate dear friend George trying to help all those lost young soles just trying to be the best they can be. Cheating is not bad, it is just a means to an end. Wonder if that's how George got his degree?

posted 02-28-2004 03:55 PM            

By the way, I passed my final exam Friday and I have to say it feels really damn good to be able to finally understand these posts

Now to the original question...which was basically 'What do we do about George?'

I personally believe that any direct competition or challenge will be fruitless. I equally believe that we need to pull our heads out of the sand and accept we are in a new era where the 'secrets' of polygraph that really made things so easy for examiners are no longer secrets. People certainly don't understand ALL of polygraph, but they are getting just enough good information to make all your jobs harder.

The best defense is a strong offense. We find ourselves constantly on the defensive whether from George, the media, the courts or plain old misconception in the minds of most.

I really believe our best bet is to bring polygraph out of the closet and begin to overwhelm public opinion with the sheer weight of good that polygraph accomplishes. You don't have to argue validity to simply tell the truth of lives that were saved and criminals who were put away because of this tool.

Jim, you mentioned that there are no statistics on those who have tried CM's and been caught. Very true, but we could have those stats. I could publish those stats on this site.

I started the polygraph true stories in just such an effort, but the response from the polygraph community has been abysmal.

I'm not deterred in the least, I guess I'm just saying that at least part of the solution is to realize that Polygraph NEEDS GOOD PUBLIC RELATIONS and for every examiner to take action. We don't have to defend ourselves, we need to take the offensive and present a positive, united face to the public.

That's my mission anyway.

------------------
Ralph Hilliard
PolygraphPlace Owner & Operator
http://www.polygraphplace.com

posted 02-29-2004 02:47 PM         

Looks like you paid attention in polygraph school! Congrats!

I agree with you. George is not worth our time. Since he does monitor this site, we should start posting the stories about people who have used his techniques and then been caught!

posted 02-29-2004 04:02 PM            

good idea for a start. How about Ralph open a new forum for the mindless believers of anything on the I'net, let's call it, "Discussion for those not willing to be truthful and believe anything on the internet...forum"

Jim